Did God Set Adam Up To Fall?

TheCentralScrutinizer · 14 Feb 07 :: 07:02

What were the ripples of Joan's "assignment" in Secret Service?

1) While Adam and Joan were feeling the strain in their relationship, Adam met Bonnie and we know where that went one week later.

2) Kevin and Lilly made a date and began to get back together.

So what was the point of the whole thing? Why would God dangle the one thing Adam couldn't have in front of him while he was barely clinging to Joan? Isn't that a little mean?

Deb

Susanna · 14 Feb 07 :: 09:27

Interesting question, it's hard because I have to juggle the universe of the programme with my own personal beliefs here.

Did God dangle Bonnie and the prospect of sex in front of him? If Adam was going to do it with Bonnie I think that even if Bonnie hadn't of been there, Adam would've done it with someone else or even still Bonnie at a later point, she went to Arcadia High so them meeting is a distinct possibility. If God was trying to put Adam and Bonnie together, then I think it would've been because he was trying to speed up something that was inevitable with their current relations, rather than seeing it being prolonged.

Although I'm not entirely convinced that "God's point" had anything at all to do with Adam and Bonnie, they were merely a consequence of other actions.

Sorry it's a muddly answer but I gotta go and watch Lost. I'll be back later.

domesticelefant · 14 Feb 07 :: 12:12

Sisterdebmac wrote:

Isn't that a little mean?

Of course it's mean! It's very mean! It's "The OC" mean!
Okay, that's not a very useful answer but since we know that they wanted the show to be more "The OC", I blame The OC for everything.

TeeJay · 14 Feb 07 :: 12:45

See, that's the thing about season two. Why is it that the ripples were either not clear to see or negative in season two? That's one thing that I didn't like that much about the second season.

But back on topic, why would God dangle temptation in front of him, in the form of Bonnie? Perhaps it was meant to be a test for Adam. A test for Adam and Joan's relationship. The question is, would God have known what Adam would do with the temptation? If so, wouldn't he have wanted Joan to prevent him from hooking up with Bonnie? However, maybe something worse would have happened if Adam hadn't cheated on Joan with Bonnie. But that's all speculation at this point.

I mean, I am the biggest A/J shipper, but what if God's ultimate plan was not for the two of them to be together? What if God had other plans for Joan? Then it would kinda make sense. Or what if His plan was to separate them now so that they could reflect on their feelings for each other and Joan's willingness to exercise forgiveness, so that they could find each other again later (Deb, can you say Butterflies? )? Or what if God needed Joan to not be in a relationship for what was to come with regards to Ryan Hunter.

I guess there's lots of answers for this one, but I would much have preferred Adam not becoming a cheater.

-TeeJay

domesticelefant · 14 Feb 07 :: 13:37

TeeJay wrote:

I mean, I am the biggest A/J shipper, but what if God's ultimate plan was not for the two of them to be together? What if God had other plans for Joan? Then it would kinda make sense. Or what if His plan was to separate them now so that they could reflect on their feelings for each other and Joan's willingness to exercise forgiveness, so that they could find each other again later (Deb, can you say Butterflies? )? Or what if God needed Joan to not be in a relationship for what was to come with regards to Ryan Hunter.

This is an interesting thought. And it's a shame that we'll never know the truth about this.
And yeah, I also would have preferred Adam not becoming a cheater. (Can I say OC again? I hate that show.)

TheCentralScrutinizer · 14 Feb 07 :: 19:48

OK, first of all, of course God knew that Adam would cheat. He knows everything about us. That's why it's so mean that he put Adam and Bonnie together.

But if God wanted to break A/J up, why was He encouraging her toward forgiveness as early as one week later?

I don't think God "tests" us specifically. Why should He? He already knows what we'll do. He does give us trials in our lives, but they're usually supposed to strengthen us in some way. Maybe it was something like that.

Still doesn't really make much sense though. And my original question stands. If framing Joan for the egging so that she'd have to do community service which put her in Bonnie's proximity was NOT the point of the exercise, why did He do it? The only other outcome was Kevin & Lilly, unless I'm forgetting something. Am I?

Deb

TeeJay · 14 Feb 07 :: 20:01

Sisterdebmac wrote:

And my original question stands. If framing Joan for the egging so that she'd have to do community service which put her in Bonnie's proximity was NOT the point of the exercise, why did He do it?

Could it be that He did it so that Bonnie would get into Mrs. G's art class? So that she could build up some confidence about the fact that her art was worth something. So that she might one day end up being a really famous artist in New York (can you say Butterflies again, Deb?). Something like that. And maybe Kevin and Lilly too.

-TeeJay

domesticelefant · 14 Feb 07 :: 20:06

Mrs. G's art class ... that's right. From that viewpoint it does make sense.
And Kevin and Lilly, well ... maybe there would have been another way to bring them together. But the way he did it, he separated Joan and Adam. Which was not that funny.

TheCentralScrutinizer · 14 Feb 07 :: 20:59

Yeah, I guess that scene of Bonnie on the bus looking at the art book was supposed to tell us that the mission was accomplished. OK, so Bonnie's art is more valuable in the eyes of God than Adam and Joan's relationship. Not cool, G. So not cool.

Deb

domesticelefant · 14 Feb 07 :: 21:05

Sisterdebmac wrote:

So not cool.

Dito.

TeeJay · 14 Feb 07 :: 21:31

Sisterdebmac wrote:

OK, so Bonnie's art is more valuable in the eyes of God than Adam and Joan's relationship.

You know, maybe it wasn't just about the art. Maybe in the long run Bonnie's life was at stake. You know, kinda like with Adam's sculpture. Maybe if she hadn't gotten into Mrs. G's art class, she would have wound up a junkie, overdosing in an alley at 21 somewhere. Who knows? Would have been nice to tell us that, if it were so, though. But ultimately, Bonnie's life counts more than a romantic relationship, doesn't it? (Not that I want to justify anything here.)

-TeeJay

domesticelefant · 14 Feb 07 :: 22:32

Sounds still like the usual teenage show to me. The whole cheating/drugs/whatever story. I still blame The OC. It killed my favorite couple.
I mean, the show wasn't about Bonnie. It wasn't called Bonnie of Arcadia. The show was about Joan and Adam belonged to her and not to Bonnie.

TheCentralScrutinizer · 14 Feb 07 :: 22:59

OK, maybe Bonnie was in danger of winding up in a ditch somewhere. And yes, it would've been nice if God had told Joan that. But she didn't ask the question I posed, did she? She never said, "you set this up so I could help Bonnie help herself to my boyfriend". Why? Maybe if she had, she (and we) would've gotten a satisfactory answer. Heck, maybe the writers didn't even think it through that far.

I can accept that Bonnie's immediate situation was grave and that she needed help and that was more important than the A/J ship --- if we are to believe what we'd like to believe, that God knew A&J would eventually get back together anyway because they were meant to be. In that context, it might not suck so much.

But on the other hand, why would God set Bonnie up to get USED by a boy who cared nothing about her --- a boy with a very sweet, so far uncorrupted soul no less? It all just seems very, very mean to me. And in the end, EVERYONE got hurt. So what did it really accomplish? Who's to say that getting used by yet another guy --- one who never seemed like a user, no less --- might not be the final straw that pushed Bonnie over the edge? After all, we really have no idea what happened to her after Adam was so callous to her in the hallway because we never saw her again.

I guess I just still see no point to the whole thing. Do we just chalk it up once again to bad writing? Such a lousy excuse.

Deb

domesticelefant · 14 Feb 07 :: 23:28

Maybe there is no point to understand. CBS wanted this show to die, so they killed it.

Susanna · 15 Feb 07 :: 05:20

While I know that there was issues behind the scenes with the direction of the show and that episode, I've always been one to just take the show as it comes and accept it because that is the only version of the show there is. If you're going to discuss the show you have to think in terms of universe within the show, without taking external or behind the scenes influences into account. That's how I always think in any case.

I think that Adam & Joan's relationship was not going smoothly, so sooner or later something was going to give. So maybe God intended for Adam & Bonnie to meet so Bonnie could get into the art class. Maybe there is some undisclosed reason as to Joan's assignment, we don't see the full effect of Joan's deeds. I'm saying that Adam & Joan were drifting apart and they would've broken up in the not to distant future. Maybe by breaking up because of Adam's infidelity they were just speeding it up and making way for them to reconcile and strengethen their relationship at a later point.

TheCentralScrutinizer · 15 Feb 07 :: 06:02

I was going to say something similar about wanting to discuss this in terms of the story and not the machinations of the "show" but I wasn't sure how to do so diplomatically. You put it beautifully, Susanna.

And I guess since we have no evidence to the contrary, I have to say that God intended for Adam and Bonnie to meet. God put him on a path where he could fail miserably. But Adam still had free will. He wasn't predestined to make the wrong choice. But he did.

To his credit, he does learn that betraying the one you love most will destroy your world. Maybe God wanted to show him that he was taking the love of his life for granted. By making their relationship more about how badly he wanted sex, Adam was wrecking things already. Maybe God wanted him to see that sex without love is just an empty act. And I'd like to think that learning this lesson the hard way at such a young age would make him a better man for Joan later (Butterflies - sigh).

Deb

TeeJay · 15 Feb 07 :: 09:37

Sisterdebmac wrote:

Maybe God wanted him to see that sex without love is just an empty act. And I'd like to think that learning this lesson the hard way at such a young age would make him a better man for Joan later.

Yes, that's something I can both see and accept. Well, except for the part where it really hurts Joan. But I still want to believe that Adam would later redeem himself and Joan will exercise forgiveness and give him another chance. And I'm also still willing to believe that the whole thing had an impact on Bonnie as well. Maybe Adam would have apologized to her. Maybe they even had a good talk about how what they did was wrong. I can totally see Adam tell Bonnie that she deserves better and should not hang with all those no-good types in school, otherwise she'll get knocked up one day. Fan fiction, anyone?

-TeeJay

domesticelefant · 15 Feb 07 :: 12:08

TeeJay wrote:

Yes, that's something I can both see and accept. Well, except for the part where it really hurts Joan. But I still want to believe that Adam would later redeem himself and Joan will exercise forgiveness and give him another chance. And I'm also still willing to believe that the whole thing had an impact on Bonnie as well. Maybe Adam would have apologized to her. Maybe they even had a good talk about how what they did was wrong. I can totally see Adam tell Bonnie that she deserves better and should not hang with all those no-good types in school, otherwise she'll get knocked up one day.

Agreed.
But I also agree with Susanna, their relationship wasn't going very well in Season 2. I noticed that ever since, you could say, Judith's death. I think that was the point where it started to go wrong. Maybe you can't notice it at the beginning, but when you look back you can see it.

TheCentralScrutinizer · 15 Feb 07 :: 16:52

They were having problems, sure. But every relationship does. Their problems were not enough to break them up. They could've worked everything out if they'd really tried. And maybe they would've tried if not for Bonnie. Look at that conversation he had with Joan right before he met her. They acknowledged that they were in trouble --- really for the first time. I can't help but wonder what would've happened without Bonnie in the picture.

Deb

Editsound · 18 Aug 07 :: 04:45

There was another ripple to Joan's community service. Mrs. G was having serious doubts about her teaching. Then she overheard Adam talking to Bonnie about her as a teacher, and she realised that she was having an impact on the kids.

As to God being mean. Remember God is constantly reminding Joan that we have free will. God did not make Adam cheat. Adam did it. God can see all of the possible ways things can come out, but in the end, our choices are what decides the outcomes. God gives Joan tasks, which can lead to the world being better, but her choices still are the final determining factors. I thing God put Adam together with Bonnie, because she needed a friend who could understand her. Yes, there was a temptation there, but if he had just been the friend he should have been, his whole life would have been better.

One final note to this rant, I agree they shouldn't have had Adam cheat. It felt out of character.

TheCentralScrutinizer · 18 Aug 07 :: 04:51

I thing God put Adam together with Bonnie, because she needed a friend who could understand her. Yes, there was a temptation there, but if he had just been the friend he should have been, his whole life would have been better.

Wow. That's a really cool insight. And very true. I pose these questions to draw people into discussing what was always one of the most interesting aspects to the show to me. I really, really appreciate you posting your thoughts on this. I can't argue with a word you said.

Welcome to the board!

Deb

Editsound · 18 Aug 07 :: 09:19

Thanks for the kind words.

The beauty of the show is that it brought so many ideas and concepts and emotions, that it can actually be discussed and debated. I've been looking for a place to talk about it, so thanks to all of you for providing the opportunity.

TheCentralScrutinizer · 18 Aug 07 :: 09:32

Absolutely, Rick. That's what it's all about. I'm sure we'll find lots to talk about.

domesticelefant · 18 Aug 07 :: 13:47

I thing God put Adam together with Bonnie, because she needed a friend who could understand her. Yes, there was a temptation there, but if he had just been the friend he should have been, his whole life would have been better.

That's an interesting theory!

TeeJay · 18 Aug 07 :: 23:10

I can't remember if we talked about it on this board or somewhere else, but someone once asked the question that, given everything that happens up until the end of season 2, who would be the most likely person Joan would confess to about talking to God?

I used to think it would be Adam, but that was before episode 2x19. Or let's say I wanted it to be him then. But somehow he couldn't be because Joan already tried once and it didn't work out. I can't really see her telling Grace, so for me the most likely person is Helen. She's spiritual, trying to find her way back to God. She'd probably be weirded or freaked out, but I can see her grasping the concept and supporting her daughter.

Kevin might also be an interesting choice...

What do you guys think?

As to the notion about God possibly setting Adam up to fall, I don't know. If he did, then what was the point? Show Adam that free will can wreak havoc on your and other people's lives? That your actions and decisions can end up hurting people? That love can perish at the flick of the wrist? Maybe a more interesting question is, if God did set Adam up to fall, did He know that Adam would give in to temptation? And if so, did God have an ulterior motive for doing it?

The hopeless romantic in me wanted to see Joan and Adam getting back together in season 3. Not in a cheesy okay-I-forgive-you kind of way. But they could have done a great storyline with Ryan. You know, Ryan would drag Adam down into his mess, rope him in, charm him--thus estrange him from Joan even more. And after a while Adam would realize that Ryan wasn't supposed to be trusted and he'd eventually come round, seeing that Joan was right all along. And maybe that would have been one of the stepping stones for them to gain more of a trust in each other again. <sigh> I wish we could have gotten a third season.....

-TeeJay

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