2x19 Trial & Error

TeeJay · 25 Jul 06 :: 22:42

Let's continue the Trial and Error discussion here:

Sisterdebmac wrote:
To go back to something we talked about a little while ago; saying that Chris's performance in Trial & Error is all about the confession scene is kind of like saying Haley Osment's performance in The Sixth Sense is only about the "I see dead people" scene. It just doesn't go far enough with the praise.

Oh God, so true. The airbrush scene, that's what I first thought about when you mentioned the guilt. Plus the one in the bookstore, where he goes in and almost breaks down crying in Joan's arms. That scene alone inspired me to write "'Til It's Gone".

Also, the scene in the mock trial room that precedes the break-up scene--that's so powerful. How Adam just sits there and is being verbally crushed by Joan. So heartbreaking. Make my gut wrench every time. And how Joan is standing there with the single tear running down her face. So so powerful. Man, I could sing praise about this episode for pages. No wonder it makes me want to write one fan fiction after the next.

-TeeJay

domesticelefant · 25 Jul 06 :: 22:56

Oh yeah, the Airbrush scene. When I watched the whole episode it was like I could see the guilt just jumping out of his eyes. (Can I say it that way in English? I don't know a better translation for it, sorry.) And then the trial scene. I think I never saw a more powerful scene. I didn't know what to do. A part of me wanted to hate Adam for what he did to Joan and another part just wanted to hug and comfort him. It was weird, but I really felt like that.

Susanna · 02 Oct 06 :: 02:07

I watched Trial & Error in it's entirity last night. I spent the whole day knowing I was going to watch it and not wanting night to come, yet not being able to wait until I could watch it.

I've seen the Trial parts of it before, and so I had pretty much gotten a lot of my anger at Adam out of the way already. So I was pretty sympathetic to Adam, it's all really heart wrenching stuff. It's all very powerful and hard to watch.

Surprisingly, I'm not mad at Bonnie. I feel sorry for her. She's got her own issues and Adam just complicated her life more for her, which is pretty inconsiderate. And I mean, who could actually resist Adam???

God, when Adam left Bonnies and banged his head against the wall... awww you just wanna tell him it's okay, but it's not and he stuffed up big time.

eternalghost · 17 Oct 06 :: 00:19

i was literally sobbing practically this entire episode! every scene is so incredibly powerful, and i went from hating adam to wanting to hug him every 30 seconds. when i saw him with bonnie i was throwing stuff at the screen, and then when he left and was leaning against her door and he looked like he was about to cry, i wanted to hug him. and then every time he looked so guilty and sad, i couldn't decide if i should enjoy his pain or hate it. and then during the mock trial i actually was mad at joan for attacking him, but then i realized he deserved it. and then when he was completely breaking down when they broke up, i wanted to hug him so badly! i'm a sucker for guys who cry!

TheCentralScrutinizer · 17 Oct 06 :: 01:17

We're suckers for man-crying too. Why else would we adore this guy so much? He's the best at it!

Deb

Susanna · 17 Oct 06 :: 06:21

Yeah, during that interogation scene, I went from being mad at Adam for what he did to being mad at Joan for yelling at him and back and forth. Quite exhausting. But Adam being upset... that's good stuff.

shrams · 17 Oct 06 :: 06:51

Adam was my all-time favorite TV character...until Trial and Error. Hm, maybe I can post my rather lengthy defense of Adam, which I wrote before the episode aired. Argh! I loved the idea that Adam, fictional though he might be, could theoretically represent an actual human being. An actual male human being. Although I've been assured by one male friend who watched some of the episodes that no real teenage boy would be as much of a Boy Scout as Adam was, I really wanted to believe that Adam was the exception to the rule. Oh, well.

Since the advent of Adam, I've noticed a number of "nice" guys on TV shows, and wondered if it were a trend inspired by Adam. Among these paragons of male virtue are Joe DuBois from Medium (the World's Best Husband), George and Denny from Grey's Anatomy, Joseph (Lily's new boyfriend) from Cold Case, and...there must be more. Think! Oh, yeah... Dr. Reid from Criminal Minds, Zach from Bones, and both Charlie and Larry from Numb3rs. That's eight nice guys on TV, post-Adam. Coincidence? I think not! I've always preferred the sweet, nice, polite guys to the bad boys that TV specializes in, but there sure seem to be more of them lately.

Back to Adam: I agree that when he cries it just breaks my heart. My feelings changed so many times during that episode. I was literally screaming at the TV during the scene with Bonnie; my mother thought I'd gone crazy. If Adam hadn't felt any remorse, or had any concept of what he'd done, I'd have had less respect for him. I just couldn't get over the fact that even Adam could succumb to hormonal overload. It makes it seem as though no one can ever hope to find a really decent, respectful guy, if the sweetest, kindest, most considerate of them can still throw all that aside for immediate satisfaction. I felt it was giving a really negative message in that regard, but maybe there were things in plan for Season 3 that might have given us a better reason for Adam's fall from grace. I've just never seen such a spectacular character assassination on TV, that really confused and angered so many loyal fans. What were TPTB thinking? I'd dearly love to know.

TeeJay · 17 Oct 06 :: 09:14

Thank you for that lengthy reply with your thoughts on post-Bonnie Adam. Yes, I was nodding all the way through it, because I feel exactly the same way. You don't know how many fan fictions I've written that deal with his pain and remorse and regret, and somehow finding a reason to justify it. You'd think I was over that by now, but every now and then I wanna go back to that moment of sheer agony and delve into it and Adam's mind, and then put his thoughts down on paper. (Deb, I'll try hard not to in the future and instead concentrate on our redeemed Butterflies Adam, I promise.)

And shrams? I think you'll love what Chris himself had to say about the episode:

Chris:
Oh, you have no idea! I hated it! I got in the biggest argument with all the producers. You have no idea. I was like: You're going to ruin me... as an actor. Because like, you don't understand, anybody who ever likes me on the show is because of my relationship with Joan. And I was like, and there is absolutely no reason why he should do this. I fought that for about two weeks when I first got the script, and then when I went in, I even fought about, like OK, well I guess if he has to cheat, what exactly are we gonna do with it then? Is it all gonna be in vain, is there like a—? You know, I tried to make a reason, you know? I tried to find some kind of reason, to make him a bit more immature, and a bit more like he's just, it's kind of like he's got tons of hormones and he's a teenager, and some girl just lays herself out and he just has to? You know? And that still didn't really come across, so, to be honest, it really didn't—

Tina:
You know, the fans hated that episode.

Chris:
Yeah, I bet they did. And that's what I told them! And so I'm glad to finally know, because I kept telling them. I was like guys, they're gonna— You don't understand, this makes no sense. And to be honest, you know, what they wanted is, they wanted, the studio, those people, wanted to make the show for kids. They wanted to make it for young kids. Literally, I think they wanted to make it like The O.C. And so the idea was like make people cheat on people. And like make people heartbroken. And you know, if there's any decent character, make him an asshole. You know, and it was like why are you gonna do that to these nice people with this decent relationship? At the same time the only thing nice about it, the only thing that they sorta convinced me was nice about it, they said after a while, you guys are kinda like an old married couple. And I was like, I can kinda see that. And they're like so we're kinda— that was their thing to me. Which, to be honest, was kinda hiding the fact that they just, you know were trying to make us The O.C. But at the same time, it was like, OK, this is what it has to be. You have no idea, I really... I went through, like, a lot of hell with that episode, you have no— Yeah, I really did.

Yeah, we were all upset. You have no— Amber and I sat down with Jim Hayman and Peter Schindler, and uh, a couple— I forgot exactly who wrote that episode because the writers all switched so much. But we sat down with all five of them and we were like we can't do this. I don't know what you guys are doing, but we can't do this. Like, I mean, you want us to break up, we'll break up, but don't like have him cheat on her. Amber was upset, I was upset, everybody was. It really didn't make any sense. Michael Welch came to me, Jason Ritter came to me, even Mary Steenburgen, everybody came and was like, I don't understand why they're doing it. I was like, me either! I keep telling 'em, so... Everybody was completely against it.

And you're right about all the good male TV characters that have sprung up in recent years (and surprisingly, I know most of them). I have one more to name, even though it's kind of an insult to name him in the same thread as JoA: Jim Gordon from Ghost Whisperer. It's not that I love the show, but I watch it on occasion when I feel like just wanting something mindless that'll still make me cry (because I'm a crybaby when it comes to TV--and I can't help it, even if it's cheap TV like that show). But then again, Jim is too much of the perfect husband. No guy can be that perfect. Guess that's why I love Joe from Medium so much better, he's got flaws, he doesn't always react perfectly. And that's just very very real. When does the new season of Medium start again?

-TeeJay

domesticelefant · 17 Oct 06 :: 17:05

TeeJay wrote:

Thank you for that lengthy reply with your thoughts on post-Bonnie Adam. Yes, I was nodding all the way through it, because I feel exactly the same way.

Me too.
And I can`t understand why the authors wanted to make the show more like The O.C. ... that's a crap show if you ask me and JoA was a marvel.

TheCentralScrutinizer · 17 Oct 06 :: 17:39

It was a complete character assasination. It made no sense and it was all done for a completely cynical reason. I'm still angry about that.

But I think that if there had been a third season, we might've seen Adam fall even more from grace before he was redeemed because I think Ryan had big plans for him. I think there would've been quite a battle between Joan and Ryan over Adam. Because no matter what, Adam was always so very important to Joan. Ryan knew that. And he would've done everything in his power to corrupt Adam and separate him from Joan. I think that might've been very interesting.

And TeeJay, I don't think Chris would've felt stuck in a rut playing Adam if all that stuff had taken place. He would've had a a lot of conflict to play.

Man, I wish we could've seen that!

Deb

domesticelefant · 17 Oct 06 :: 18:21

Sisterdebmac wrote:

But I think that if there had been a third season, we might've seen Adam fall even more from grace before he was redeemed because I think Ryan had big plans for him. I think there would've been quite a battle between Joan and Ryan over Adam. Because no matter what, Adam was always so very important to Joan. Ryan knew that. And he would've done everything in his power to corrupt Adam and separate him from Joan. I think that might've been very interesting.

Yeah, that would have been indeed interesting. Good point!

And TeeJay, I don't think Chris would've felt stuck in a rut playing Adam if all that stuff had taken place. He would've had a a lot of conflict to play.

I would have loved to see that! <sigh>

shrams · 18 Oct 06 :: 05:29

TeeJay, thank you so much for posting Chris's response! That's such a relief. It crossed my mind on occasion that maybe he suggested they make Adam more of a "normal" teenage boy, but I think most of us loved the character because he was so unique. I'm glad it wasn't his idea, he hated it, and fought against it. For all the good it did. It's too bad they couldn't have a commentary from him and Amber for that episode, but maybe by then the studio realized they'd made a huge mistake and didn't want to advertise it. I actually accidentally taped over "Trial and Error," both copies...it was like a physical Freudian slip. I didn't intend to do it, but somehow both copies were gone, so I haven't been able to watch it since a few days after it aired.

There was so much interesting potential conflict with Ryan, and the possiblity of Adam doing a lot of things Joan was trying to set right, because he was misguided and didn't really realize the harm he was causing. I was waiting to see something like that play out, and of course, we never got to see where they would have gone with the whole Ryan thing.

I did watch Ghost Whisperer once, and I thought Jim was pretty nice, but I agree, Joe is more interesting, because he's flawed but they're flaws I can deal with. He comes across as a potentially real person, though Jake Weber said in an interview that in real life he's nowhere near as understanding as Joe, and he's not sure anyone would be that understanding. Just like it would seem to be impossible to find a real teenage guy like Adam, but darn it, I at least want my fictional men to be nice, decent, thoughtful guys!

ETA: If I'd wanted to watch The O.C., I'd have watched it. I watched Joan because it wasn't the typical show aimed at teens. I thought it was aimed at all different ages, and though the lead characters happened to be teenagers, they were having more interesting things happen to them than on most other shows. I think I was also in post-Buffy depression, and so I was willing to give another show featuring teens a shot. I was nothing like most of the kids I knew in high school, or the kids I see portrayed on TV, or what I read on various message boards. Yeah, my experiences were different from most, but that's why I can relate to the teenage characters who aren't stereotypes.

BTW, Medium is coming back on November 15 (Wednesday) at 10:00 p.m.., on NBC. I'm really looking forward to this season. Javier Grillo-Marxuach has joined as a writer/producer, and he wrote some wonderful stuff for Lost.

Last edited by shrams (18 Oct 06 :: 07:12)

TeeJay · 18 Oct 06 :: 08:12

Oh yes, I can also see how in season three they would have taken the Ryan conflict and taken it to new levels. Adam would have been right there in the middle of Ryan and Joan. He would have been the rope in the tug of war between Joan and Ryan. And I would have loved to see Adam discover after a while what a fluke Ryan actually is and then move over to Joan's side.

And, yes, as shippers of course I would have loved to see Joan and Adam get back together. Not sure it would actually have happened, but I think a lot of fans were hoping it would. But if the network wanted to make JoA like The O.C. (which--I have to admit--I did watch, but not avidly and began more and more to despise as the show went on), who would have known what would have happened. They might have coupled Adam with a really hot and anorexic teenager with lotsa boobies (can you say the Duff sisters??), made him really hip and trendy all of a sudden and have Joan fall for this bad guy who just hung around drinking beer all day and made her discover smoking weed is actually really cool. And, yes, CBS, I'm sure all the kids would have loved that.

Aren't you glad now the show got cancelled? They could have done something really great with season three, but they could also have killed the spirit of the show, as I now realize. They certainly killed the spirit of one of my other favorite shows, Roswell. Season one was just magical, season two went downhill and season three was just barely enjoyable. This was a show I didn't actually mind too much being cancelled after season three. I should really take out my s1 box again and watch it. Haven't done that for a long time. Not that I really have the time...

Okay, I need to get going, otherwise I'll be really late getting to work. I mean, already am.

-TeeJay

domesticelefant · 18 Oct 06 :: 09:29

Can I just say that I love Medium more than GW because Joe and Allison have a lot more arguements than Melinda and her way-too-perfect Jim? (Sorry, maybe this doesn't explain right what I wanted to say, but I have to do it that way, because my English isn't so perfect.) I mean, I watched the first season and it was kinda nice because I didn`t need any subtitles to understand it, but they had their perfect marriage in a perfect house in their little perfect world and this is a little TOO perfect for me. And, I have to admit it, it's boring. But watching Medium was never as boring as watching GW, even if I didn't understand Medium that perfect.

They might have coupled Adam with a really hot and anorexic teenager with lotsa boobies (can you say the Duff sisters??), made him really hip and trendy all of a sudden and have Joan fall for this bad guy who just hung around drinking beer all day and made her discover smoking weed is actually really cool. And, yes, CBS, I'm sure all the kids would have loved that.

I'm sure the kids would have loved that, but I'm pretty sure that it would have made me stop watching the show because that's so typically cliché, like all those typical teenage shows like The OC and I hate shows like that. Their not very realistic. I mean ok, talking to God may be not realistic either but they did develop the show in a very realistic way which was - to me - way more realistic than The OC.

shrams · 19 Oct 06 :: 04:55

I thnk one of the biggest problems is the network suits never seemed to realize that their target audience (18-45?) is not likely to stay at home on Friday night, for any show. They'd have been better off to stick with the original plan, and be happy with the audience they had. For those of us who don't go out on Friday nights, it was great to have something to watch, but no matter how "teen-friendly" the show was, it wasn't going to force any one to stay home, in this age of TiVO and other digital recording, plus VCRs.

I didn't care for the "dumb it down" approach, and I didn't like the invasion of the Duff sisters, because it seemed like such an obvious ploy to try to bring in younger viewers. If you've got a show featuring teens, and teens aren't watching it, but adults are...be happy. Leave it alone. Maybe it means you have something really special.

Last edited by shrams (20 Oct 06 :: 03:19)

TheCentralScrutinizer · 19 Oct 06 :: 07:21

Damn, shrams, you are so exactly right. Beautifully put. Thanks so much for saying it so succinctly.

Deb

Susanna · 19 Oct 06 :: 23:26

I have to agree with you on this one. I think TPTB missed something special and what I considered to be the point of the show but changing it to try and attract younger viewers.

I like this show, but after the s1 commentarys, which were so boring and seemed to consist of "look there's my name, oh look there's so-and-sos name weren't they wonderful, oh yes." rather than actually paying much attention to what was happening on screen. (I believe were done by Barbara Hall and James Hayman) I had reservations about the producers of this show. I love the show. Dislike the producers. Now, to hear how they tried to change it to get younger viewers and consequently sabotage the show, just reinforces my point and adds more fuel to the fire.

I may not be a stereotypical teenage tv viewer, I think I got a lot of my mindless TV watching out of the way at a very young age and now I just look for quality. I hate the OC, in my opinion it's crap. I'd rather watch a show like Joan of Arcadia or Roswell or Invasion (two of my other fav shows) with actual substance anyday.

I know a lot of people my age do seem to like shows like the OC and Laguna Beach and that melodramatic genre. But that doesn't mean a perfectly good show like JoA should be ruined in the attempt to level it more with these shows to create a younger audience. There are plenty of people, admittably mostly older, who enjoy shows like JoA and that of it's dying breed. You've got to leave us something!

TheCentralScrutinizer · 19 Oct 06 :: 23:37

Yes, and you know, you can't put quality "adult" talent like Mary Steenburgen and Joe Mantegna on a show, give them excellent scenes to play, and then expect the show to skew super-young. But listen, the fault doesn't really lie with BH & Co. Sure, they caved in to pressure. But let's put the blame where it really lies --- Les Moonves. It was his dumbass decision to want the changes. It was his even dumber decision to kill the show when his "suggestions" didn't work. I would love to think that BH tried to maintain the integrity of the first season. But the truth is, by now she knows how the game is played and as she was in danger of losing not one, but two network shows in one season, she had to play ball. And she lost. Both shows. I'm sure she felt just as sad and angry about it as we did.

As for the commentaries on the S1 set, yeah, they're kinda lame. I hope they do much better on the second season set. Has anyone learned which eps will have commentary yet? Because I would dearly love for TPTB to try to explain Trial & Error without lying about what really went on behind the scenes.

Deb

TeeJay · 20 Oct 06 :: 00:18

Sisterdebmac wrote:

As for the commentaries on the S1 set, yeah, they're kinda lame. I hope they do much better on the second season set. Has anyone learned which eps will have commentary yet? Because I would dearly love for TPTB to try to explain Trial & Error without lying about what really went on behind the scenes.

Do you expect them to be as open about it was Chris was, though? I mean, I'd love for people to explain to us what we've been wondering about all along, but I don't really expect much from them, just like Susanna already put it. I mean, CBS still had to market the s2 box. I don't think there's gonna be any open minded, honest talk about what really went on behind the scenes. They may hint at a few things, but I'm not getting my hopes up to be thrown the scraps that we've been hungering for all this time. I'd rather have some silly and fun actor commentaries that giggle about hairstyles and bloopers than some lame-ass producer/author commentaries that don't give us anything new.

-TeeJay

TheCentralScrutinizer · 20 Oct 06 :: 01:51

What I'm hoping to hear from TPTB, honestly, is some righteous anger at CBS for meddling and then for giving up far too easily. We probably won't get it. But it sure would be nice.

It's kinda like Buffy, Season Six when Joss Whedon brought the wrath of the online community down on his head for some of his wretched, bloody awful decisions. For the longest time, he wouldn't admit some of what he did was pretty stupid. He blamed everyone but himself. Took at least a couple of years for him to say maybe he went a little too far. And that in the end, it was nobody's fault but his own.

I just hope there are a lot of extras, whatever the turn out to be.

Deb

domesticelefant · 20 Oct 06 :: 10:40

TeeJay wrote:

I'd rather have some silly and fun actor commentaries that giggle about hairstyles and bloopers than some lame-ass producer/author commentaries that don't give us anything new.

Yeah, me too.

shrams · 20 Oct 06 :: 17:59

I agree about the commentaries. I want to know what the actors thought of certain scenes, or character motivation, etc. The kind of answer Chris gave to your question is exactly the kind of thing I'd like to hear from actors. Instead of making fun of each other, or producers talking about aspects of the show most of us don't care about, let us hear from the actors, and maybe the writers of certain episodes. I want to know what was going on in their minds. It doesn't all have to be negative; can you imagine the fun they could have with a cast commentary for Book of Secrets or Queen of the Zombies, or even The Cat? There could be interesting behind-the-scenes info on Only Connect, Wealth of Nations, P.O.V. or Friday Night. While I didn't like all the episodes, and hated some, I'd like to have commentary on all of them. I know we won't get it, but it will be interesting to see which episodes they did deem worthy of commentaries.

TheCentralScrutinizer · 20 Oct 06 :: 18:26

Shrams, which eps did you hate? I can honestly say I've never hated a JOA ep. A couple of the first season ones with very little Adam are not among my favorites. But I never outright hated any ep of the show. Not even the ones with the Duffs. In fact, despite the Duffs, I really love both those eps because of the A/J content.

Deb

TheCentralScrutinizer · 20 Oct 06 :: 23:55

In a thread on IMDb called, "uhh..any adam fans?", they got into a discussion of Trial & Error and whether the whole thing was a character assassination or not. So I posted Chris's comments about it from our interview. This is the first reply:

by dealingdreams 2 days ago (Wed Oct 18 2006 13:33:04) Ignore this User | Report Abuse
UPDATED Wed Oct 18 2006 13:35:18
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the interview with Chris Marquette. It's really crazy that the writers and producers of the show wouldn't listen to or take into consideration all of their complaints about the whole cheating storyline. All the fans knew it wasn't the real Adam...but the interview was great and I'm very impressed with him. That was a really good interview.

~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, there are decent people at IMDb after all.

Deb

TeeJay · 21 Oct 06 :: 01:41

Yes, thanks so much for sharing that. I got in a whole other uproad about the IMDb jerks tonight with Diane at the Trek-Dinner. She mentioned similar things at some of the board she checks. She's a huge Viggo Mortensen and Jens Lehmann (German national team soccer goal keeper) fan and she complained about how on the message boards there's all these 16-year-olds, going on about how hot he is, but wouldn't get into any serious conversation about the actual topics at hand. Like, oh, say... soccer? Or ask stupid questions like if he's gay when you can easily read up on that he's married with three kids. Sound familiar?

Oh, and Diane said we're hiding our Chris meeting on the website too well. The links in the news item about ROTN are tiny. And she's kinda right. She said it's one of the main "attractions" of our website now, that we actually got to meet Chris and even have an exclusive interview. Guess we could make that a little more obvious in the news item about ROTN. I'll think of something tomorrow. Gotta go to bed now.

-TeeJay

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