2x19 Trial & Error

TheCentralScrutinizer · 21 Oct 06 :: 01:55

Yeah, I guess we could go bigger. But let's keep it tasteful.

Deb

shrams · 21 Oct 06 :: 04:09

That's something I've noticed in fandom lately, that didn't used to be so prevalent, is that someone always insists an actor is gay, no matter what he says to deny it, or if he's married and/or has kids... It's not likely they'd "believe" the actor if they met him face to face and he answered their question. You can't prove a negative. You might have "proof" that an actor is gay, like say if he admits it in print, but if someone denies it, there's absolutely no way you can "prove" they're straight, if the so-called fan doesn't want to believe what the actor says. I've seen this in every fandom since the average fan had access to the Internet. I don't think it was quite as bad before that.

JoA eps I absolutely loathed: Wealth of Nations (hated Joan's lack of character development here). I hated the entire Judith storyline, and the way Joan was influenced by her. I felt like every episode that involved Judith was tainted, except for Friday Night, where I began to see a spark of humanity in her. I didn't like the character, what she stood for, the type of "friend" she represented, the whole peer-pressure storyline, and all of her interactions with Joan and Joan's friends. I just didn't think the overall tone of Season 2 was as upbeat and encouraging as the first season, and I felt that the writing, especially the continuity, was sloppy and people were frequently written out of character. I shudder to think of what Season 3 might have been like.

TheCentralScrutinizer · 21 Oct 06 :: 06:21

Maybe after a faltering Season 2, Season 3 would've gotten things back on track. As I often say, Season 3 of all my favorite shows always somehow seems to be the best, one of the best, or the first best season of the series. I can site examples till the cows some home. First and foremost, The X Files, Buffy & Angel.

You know, the first time around, I felt much the same way about Judith as you do. I thought the whole thing was forced. I didn't like the way they shoe-horned her into the gang. I didn't like that she took time away from the characters we already loved, namely Adam and Grace. But now, after having seen all of S2 three times, I have softened toward her a great deal. Now, she's just very sad and tragic to me. Still, that's with the benefit of hindsight. Maybe it's unfair for a show to require repeated viewing to appreciate a certain arc. But it happens sometimes. And it did for me with Judith.

I guess I don't really subscribe to the notion that S2 was so vastly inferior to S1. In a lot of ways, it was much more fun. We had Lily and the whole Lucyfer plotline that made the cop scenes a little more interesting. I'd say if they had managed not to destroy Adam, S2 would've been just fine with me.

Deb

shrams · 21 Oct 06 :: 08:25

I just didn't enjoy Season 2 nearly as much as the first season. Maybe part of it was that it seemed like there were so many missed opportunities. Instead of having Joan and Adam talk seriously about what she told him in the hospital, and how his belief changed, they bring in this obnoxious friend who suddenly is Joan's main confidante. I guess it's because I've known a few Judith-types in real life, and can't stand them. Sure, people make mistakes, but in my mind there's a difference between genuine stupidity and willful stupidity (i.e. the refusal to learn from one's mistakes because it takes the fun/spontenaity out of life). Judith just pushed a whole lot of my buttons, so it set a tone that bothered me from very early on.

I thought a lot of the characters were off from what we'd seen before, without a sufficient explanation. I didn't like Lucy, either. I usually don't like it when shows bring in new characters, for the same reasons you mentioned, Deb. They take up screentime that could have gone to characters I already know and like, and they all bring their own set of problems that complicate the lives of the regulars even more, and they push them into a depth of intimacy with a main character too quickly for it to be entirely believable (i.e. Dawn in Season 5 of Buffy). So, instead of delving more into Joan and Adam's relationship, let's bring in an outsider to cause friction between them, because, God knows there isn't enough there already! Same with Lucyfer. That just seemed to fade away into nothing. It's like they had some great ideas, but wimped out on fully exploring them, and decided to take a safer route instead.

In a show about a teen who converses with God, I want to see more about how that affects her life, and less about the problems that we see over and over in other TV shows. Sure, she's got regular problems too, but it almost seemed like they were using these other interruptions as an excuse to cut back on the God stuff. Because, you know, the audience doesn't want that weird stuff, they want the same thing they can see on fifteen other shows. Idiot execs.

Sorry for the long rant.

TheCentralScrutinizer · 21 Oct 06 :: 08:37

No, don't be sorry. That was an excellent rant. You are absolutely right on so many levels. And yes, it was all about fear. They set up a lot and for whatever reason, they failed to pay it off. The addition of Ryan Hunter kind of scared me because it was more interference from an outsider and I saw a lot more of a drawn-out separation for Joan and Adam in S3 because I knew he was going to corrupt Adam even further. Maybe they painted themselves too far into a corner for the spineless twits at CBS and that's why they got cancelled.

Deb

TeeJay · 21 Oct 06 :: 08:43

You know what I didn't like about s2 most of all? This whole supernatural thing they brought in. That Joan was suddenly seeing dead people and could speak to them. First Rocky, then Judith. What was that? Bring in some "Medium"? For me the show was always something real that I could see happening out there somewhere (or as real as it can be with a girl who's talking to God). Having Joan suddenly talk to "ghosts", that just weirded me out. Because I can't see that happening, not even to Joan, who has a special connection.

I'd love to rant on, but I gotta run to make my hair dresser's appointment.

-TeeJay

TheCentralScrutinizer · 21 Oct 06 :: 09:07

Why wasn't it OK for her to see Judith in S2 if it was OK for her to see Rocky in S1? Helen saw Judith too. Helen also had precognitive dreams and waking flashes of intution. I didn't think that was a big deal. Kinda cool, really.

As much as I grew to love what we got in S2 --- because it's what they gave us, it's all we have --- I can certainly see the missed opportunities shrams is talking about. In spades. Like we're always saying about ID and T&E. The season certainly has its very special moments, but they could've done lots of things better.

Hey shrams, are you on the west coast in the US? Just guessing based on posting times.

Crashing now. Tired now.

Deb

TeeJay · 21 Oct 06 :: 09:40

Sisterdebmac wrote:

Why wasn't it OK for her to see Judith in S2 if it was OK for her to see Rocky in S1?

Maybe it didn't irk me so much with Rocky because I loved Jump in every other way. And when Joan saw Rocky in the graveyard, that didn't feel so weird because it was a graveyard and they had just literally buried his body a few yards away. I could always write that off somehow as one of Joan's weird moments. I mean, it could just as well have been in her imagination somehow (even though it looked real enough and that's how, I'm sure, they wanted it to come across).

I mean, yes, Joan saw Rocky again later, and I can't really explain why it didn't really bother me then. Maybe because Rocky wasn't one of Joan's best friends, maybe because I thought it was gonna be a one-time thing, that they'd let the whole Joan-can-see-ghosts thing drop after that.

But then, in season 2, they had Judith come back, sitting by Joan's bedside, actually talking to her as if she was a real person. Or a real ghost. That somehow didn't belong on the show for me. I can buy God walking around in people form, talking to certain individuals, but as much as I love "Medium", I didn't buy the Judith-as-a-ghost thing on JoA.

So why am I okay with Allison seeing ghosts in Medium and Miranda seeing them in Ghost Whisperer? Well, that's what those shows are about, first and foremost. It's the whole premise of the show. On JoA it was about a teenager with a special connection to a certain divine entity who still had normal teenage problems. That was way more than enough to fill more than two seasons with wonderful material (with which, as discussed above, they failed more and more in s2), they didn't need to bring in a whole other supernatural element.

My two cents.

And just for the record: I wasn't too happy with them bringing in Ryan Hunter either. I still remember how very sceptic I was that this might work in s3 when I first watched Common Thread and what followed, especially Something Wicked This Way Comes. Something wicked never came that way, as we are painfully aware of. I'm sure they could have used the Ryan character to create just the right amoung of anxiety and suspense and conflict. But might also just as well have messed up big time by giving us this whole concept of grander scale Good vs. Evil, concentrating on that and pushing character development way into the background. Guess now we'll never know.

-TeeJay

domesticelefant · 21 Oct 06 :: 15:36

I can see your point of view, Tina. It's kinda the same with me. I liked the idea of Joan having this special connection with God and seeing Rocky in Jump was kina okay for me but the things with Judith in Season 2 were a little "too much" for my taste. I mean, I like Medium too, but that's a show about talking and seeing ghosts and JoA wasn't, it was about seeing and speaking to God.

shrams · 21 Oct 06 :: 20:06

Yes, Deb, I'm on the West Coast. The posting times are confusing the hell out of me!

I was bothered as much by Ryan as Judith, and the tutor guy, Roger? He annoyed me no end. I saw no reason at all why Joan would be interested in him; to me he seemed like a sleazy creep who liked hitting on vulnerable younger girls who might be fooled into thinking he was charming.

Also, the actor who played Ryan -- I know a lot of people think Wentworth Miller is hot. To me, he's just the opposite. He was supposed to be attractive, I'm sure, but he just repulsed me from the beginning. A male friend had the exact same reaction, and he thought it made it much more difficult to buy the premise that Ryan was supposed to be so charming and compelling, when he came across to both of us as rather reptilian -- a cold-blooded predator. So I had my doubts about the Ryan storyline. I felt it was an unnecessary complication, though it might have been intriguing if it had been written the right way, and IMO, if they'd cast an actor who appeared perhaps a bit more innocent and charming rather than worldly and "charming". So for me Season 2 as a whole was a huge disappointment, though there were episodes and scenes I really loved. For me, Season 2 was all about Adam, as I was liking some of the other regulars less and less. So when they messed up Adam as well, I was furious.

TeeJay · 21 Oct 06 :: 20:15

I'm not that fond of Wentworth either. He came across as just plain creepy. No visual appeal for me either. And he's age-wise much more in my league than any of the other characters were. Ooooh, don't get me started on Roger. There was no appeal whatsoever! Joan and him? No way! How she could kiss him, I have no idea. They so didn't have any chemistry. None. At all. And while I love RTJ in a way, there are things about it that I don't like at all. Or let's say: I loved the acting in it, and I just loved the last scene where they fade away with that amazingly tender and intimate kiss through the collage, but story-wise... not that great.

It somehow felt like what Deb always rants about: manufactured conflict. They wanted to build friction between Adam and Joan, so of course they had to find a person who would hit on one of them and make the other jealous. Enter Roger and Stevie. Hey, gee, this show *did* turn into The O.C. somewhere along the way of season two... There are still moments that I love and treasure from season two. I yearn for the s2 box to watch all the episodes in great quality again. But as a whole, it has a few really big flaws, more so than season one.

-TeeJay

TheCentralScrutinizer · 21 Oct 06 :: 20:42

Yeah, you're both right. Too many outsiders in S2 messing up the dynamic of the core cast. I still love the moments in it that were about our main cast though. There were lots of them.

Deb

domesticelefant · 21 Oct 06 :: 20:49

I didn't like either of them. (Ryan, Roger and Stevie) That's the reason why Ryan was the perfect devil to me.

Susanna · 22 Oct 06 :: 02:07

I never liked Judith much, I have to say. She's just the kind of person that irks me a bit. And yeah, taking screen time away from Grace, Adam, Luke and the others was not a small part of that. It seemed to me that the main reason for introducing Judith was to have a character they could kill off, without too much emotional connection with the audience. Kind of like a sacrificial character.

Some of the ghost stuff I felt a bit weird about, but nothing too extreme.

And as for Ryan, he's one of those guys I just got this repulsive feeling about, like he's covered in grease. He just seemed sleazy. But I could see some definate interesting prospects that could have been developed with him s3. What I really liked the idea of was Joan's army, and the possibility she'd end up telling Grace, Luke and Adam about God. And I agree with Shrams, I'd have prefered a different actor, a different persona for Joan's rival (perhaps a cuter guy ), I'm not really a Wentworth fan.

TheCentralScrutinizer · 22 Oct 06 :: 03:14

Reptilian is right on. That's why they hired him, I'm certain of it. He creeped me out too. But that was the idea. They were fooling with a lot of imagery in those last few eps. I just loved Adam in the tree of knowledge. The fallen one, tempted by a fallen woman and the serpent.

And yes! I loved the idea of Joan's Army. She might've finally gotten her Scooby Gang. It would've really opened up the show. Just another reason to be upset that it'll never happen.

Deb

TeeJay · 22 Oct 06 :: 11:18

Susanna wrote:

What I really liked the idea of was Joan's army, and the possibility she'd end up telling Grace, Luke and Adam about God.

Yes, most definitely. I wrote a little snippet like that in one of my fan fictions once (Pathfinder). Not sure it would have been like that on the show, and I never planned to write it that way when I started with that story, but it just came to me along the way. There are so many great things they could have done in s3 and so many ways they could have messed it up. Sometimes I think it's a shame it never happened, and sometimes I think it's a blessing. But mostly I feel sorry for not having gotten at least one more season.

-TeeJay

domesticelefant · 22 Oct 06 :: 13:23

Susanna wrote:

What I really liked the idea of was Joan's army, and the possibility she'd end up telling Grace, Luke and Adam about God.

Yeah, me too. That's the reason why I have to smile a little when I watch "Something Wicked ..." because it's funny to see them sitting there and Joan, looking a little sceptical, thinks something like "So THIS is going to be my army?"
And it makes me kinda sad, because it's the last scene of the whole show and we'll never know how Joan's army turned out to be. <sigh>

shrams · 23 Oct 06 :: 01:09

I really wanted Joan to have her own Scooby gang. It's not like God ever said, "Don't tell anyone else about me." Aside from the early warning that Adam might not be able to handle hearing that (yet), it seemed like it was up to Joan's discretion. I would have loved to have seen Grace's reaction, and Luke's. But by that point I'd lost faith in the show, and the show-runners. I was so sorely disappointed by S2, I'm not sure they would have been able to correct the mistakes there and salvage S3. But hey, that's what fan fic is for, right? To set things right that the network execs have screwed up? Oops, going back to my Quantum Leap obsession there!

TheCentralScrutinizer · 23 Oct 06 :: 01:59

Yeah, I guess the fics are largely about that. A lot of us got kind of carried away trying to explain Adam's cheating. I had a go at it myself. Luckily for me, one try got that need out of my system. Unfortunately, I went back to not being able to accept it or ever explain it because it's just not possible for that boy to behave the way they made him behave. "It was just a hook-up" is not even something that would be in Adam's vocabulary. So I just consider it an abberation. I know that's kind of ridiculous, but there you go.

And yet, if not for that episode, we wouldn't be right here, right now. Even though I'd been watching the show mostly for Adam since at least mid season one, it was not until the night Trial & Error aired and I finally stopped crying that I actually looked Chris up on the Internet for the first time. From that night on, I started chasing everything he'd ever done. They destroyed Adam for me that night. But that was when I really discovered Chris. So I have a real love/hate relationship with it. Chris and Amber gave phenomenal performances in it. But I don't buy this storyline one bit.

I kind of think it would've been a tiny bit less ridiculously out-of-character if he hadn't been such a horrible cad to Bonnie. Or if she wasn't just some skank willing to spread her legs for any boy who gave her a little attention, and if he had actually liked her enough so that she was real competition for Joan. If it had been set up that way, and Bonnie was the one who came on to him and we got to see that, it would've made a little more sense. I just cannot believe that this sensitive, empathetic, gentle boy could simply and crudely stick it to some skanky chick that he can't even stand to touch or talk to. I mean the way he acts toward her, I wonder if he even kissed her.

But since this is what they gave us and this is what we have to work with, a lot of us have gone about trying to explain how it could ever possibly happen. Endlessly. And I don't think anyone's gotten it right yet. Not completely. Can it ever be done?

When TeeJay and I started Butterflies, we made a rule. There would be no dredging up of the Bonnie incident. Frankly, I was quite sick of it by then. It had been done to death. I got to the point where I couldn't even stand the mention of her name. So far, we've gotten through almost 200 pages without that name ever being uttered. There have been very vague allusions to "what happened in high school", but six years down the road, Adam and Joan are both adults and this terrible mistake made by one of them as a kid just has no bearing on anything anymore. They have too much going on in their lives now and they're too happy to think about any of that.

But guess what, I recently got inspired to write a high school reunion fic as part of Butterflies. All the characters will be brought back togther and she who has remained nameless will finally be named in our fic. I think what happens might surprise people. It surprised the hell out of me.

Deb

shrams · 23 Oct 06 :: 03:20

I agree, the whole thing was so totally out of character for Adam, the way he'd always been written on the show. I can't believe it was a sudden attack of hormones, and then for him to treat Bonnie so cruelly...none of it was in character. Yes, your "average" teenage guy might act that way, but everything we saw of Adam showed that he was so much more sensitive, kind, and thoughtful than anyone else his age, it was just unbelievable for him to change that much in so short a time, with so little provocation. To suddenly turn him into a lying, cheating jerk just stretched credibility too far. Joan talks to God, and God talks back? Sure, I can buy that premise. Adam cheats on Joan because she won't put out and this other chick will? No. That's too unbelievable.

TheCentralScrutinizer · 23 Oct 06 :: 04:59

Thank you, Shrams!

Yes, your "average" teenage guy might act that way, but everything we saw of Adam showed that he was so much more sensitive, kind, and thoughtful than anyone else his age, it was just unbelievable for him to change that much in so short a time, with so little provocation. To suddenly turn him into a lying, cheating jerk just stretched credibility too far. Joan talks to God, and God talks back? Sure, I can buy that premise. Adam cheats on Joan because she won't put out and this other chick will? No. That's too unbelievable.

Beautiflluy put. Exactly how I feel.

Deb

TheCentralScrutinizer · 16 Nov 06 :: 04:16

Tell me something, how did this guy...

Become this guy...

???

Deb

domesticelefant · 16 Nov 06 :: 13:28

I was asking this myself for so long now, but I still couldn't figure out an answer.

(I guess my mind would say because the writers wanted him to be more "OC", but that's only a lame excuse. Adam wouldn't go OC. Not our Adam.)

TeeJay · 16 Nov 06 :: 14:13

Oh! Oh! Oh! <raises hand> I know!!!

Aliens abducted Adam, planted some weird mind-altering device in his brain that would turn him into an O.C. character kinda guy. Then they put him back in place without him noticing. Question is, does he still have the device in his brain or did they take it out again?

-TeeJay

domesticelefant · 16 Nov 06 :: 16:28

Yeah! That' it!

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