2x19 Trial & Error

Susanna · 02 Mar 08 :: 09:08

I watch T&E quite a lot, actually, I'm quite sadistic like that. I always end up mad and often teary too, but that doesn't stop me from watching it again and again and again. It's a good episode to have on hand when you feel like a good angry-at-the-world cry.

TheCentralScrutinizer · 02 Mar 08 :: 09:31

I've probably seen it like 4-5 times. I love it as the ep that made me realize how incredible Chris and Amber are. But I just can't take what they did to Adam. I've worked hard to reconcile it. Still hurts though.

domesticelefant · 02 Mar 08 :: 11:55

Susanna wrote:

Haven't you re watched T&E at all, Anne?

I have watched it. Parts of it a few times, but the whole episode only once. I mean, the performances are great, especially in "the" scene, but I just can't watch it. I have to try harder again, I think. It's the most powerful performance of the whole show and I can't watch it. :witsend:

zwanchen · 05 Mar 08 :: 15:25

I`m scared too watch it. but I just finished watching season 1. so, there`s a lonng way to go to T&E.
maybe I`m stronger then.

BiggestChrisMarquetteFan · 06 Mar 08 :: 06:21

Be sure to tell us what you think about it. It might be a really sad episode but Chris and Amber give the best performances!!!

Editsound · 07 Mar 08 :: 23:03

I have watched all of the episodes from the beginning up to "Secret Service" multiple times. But from "trial and error" until the end, I have only watched those one time. Trial and error is an excellently made episode, and is really intersting to talk about, but it feels like a really great episode of a different series. Adam acts so far out of character, that it just doesn't feel like him. If the series had continued, they probably would have tied it all back in, and those last 4 episodes would have felt more like a part of the series.

I can completely understand watching the episodes, they are excellent in so many ways (the acting as has been said, but also the dialog in "the scene" is really perfect.) But for me, I have really never had a desire to watch those 4 again.

TheCentralScrutinizer · 07 Mar 08 :: 23:19

I hear ya Rick. Nice to see you, BTW. I think a LOT of people feel much the same as you do. I've seen T&E maybe 3-4 times. I only watch it when I wanna torture myself. I do love Common Thread, somehow. But you're right, there's a huge disconnect between the pre-T&E eps and those that came afterward. I think the last one, Something Wicked This Way Comes is probably the weakest episode of the entire run of the series.

TeeJay · 08 Mar 08 :: 00:04

Sisterdebmac wrote:

I think the last one, Something Wicked This Way Comes is probably the weakest episode of the entire run of the series.

That's a good point. It might have been a little "stronger" if they had continued the show, but that episode just left the show looking like an unfinished picture. It was surely meant to be the setup for a great arc they were going to explore in season three (=> Ryan Hunter), but after the cancellation that episode just rings hollow.

I also agree about those last four episodes. I have watched the Adam/Joan parts of 2x19, 2x20 and 2x21 a lot of times, mainly because I've been writing so much fan fiction surrounding Trial & Error and its aftermath. T&E is easily the strongest episode for me acting-wise (looking at Chris and Amber), but the plot of the episode is the one I hate most of the whole show. Actually, I'm a little torn because what I loved it for was its intensity. I just wish they could have made an episode equally intense without turning Adam's character and soul inside out.

We've been speculating a lot about what they might have done in season 3 with Adam and Joan, but I think we all agree that we would have liked to see them coming closer again. Right? Just how close remains to be seen.

-TeeJay

TheCentralScrutinizer · 08 Mar 08 :: 00:19

Yes, the acting is what sells T&E. And I'm still pissed that it was not submitted for Emmy consideration. But I think for me my favorite ep in terms of Chris's acting was Shadows & Light. He got to do it all in that ep. In my opinion, you could pull those two eps and maybe Jump out of the entire run of the series and they would be perfectly representative of the power of his work on the show.

notsofairytale · 08 Mar 08 :: 01:27

I thought "Do the Math" was another great one because he had to express Adam's conflicts without using actual words and though Adam already does that most of the time, his silence and actions really spoke for him in that episode.

TheCentralScrutinizer · 08 Mar 08 :: 02:15

You're absolutely right about that, Soph. And that kiss! Wow.

BiggestChrisMarquetteFan · 08 Mar 08 :: 10:16

If I could wish for anything in the world I would wish for a lot more seasons of JOA. That would be the coolest!

domesticelefant · 09 Mar 08 :: 22:11

TeeJay wrote:

Sisterdebmac wrote:
I think the last one, Something Wicked This Way Comes is probably the weakest episode of the entire run of the series.
That's a good point. It might have been a little "stronger" if they had continued the show, but that episode just left the show looking like an unfinished picture. It was surely meant to be the setup for a great arc they were going to explore in season three (=> Ryan Hunter), but after the cancellation that episode just rings hollow.
I also agree about those last four episodes. I have watched the Adam/Joan parts of 2x19, 2x20 and 2x21 a lot of times, mainly because I've been writing so much fan fiction surrounding Trial & Error and its aftermath. T&E is easily the strongest episode for me acting-wise (looking at Chris and Amber), but the plot of the episode is the one I hate most of the whole show. Actually, I'm a little torn because what I loved it for was its intensity. I just wish they could have made an episode equally intense without turning Adam's character and soul inside out.
We've been speculating a lot about what they might have done in season 3 with Adam and Joan, but I think we all agree that we would have liked to see them coming closer again. Right? Just how close remains to be seen.
-TeeJay

Very well-said.

Donna · 15 Mar 08 :: 21:07

Olay I did it. I actually watched all four of the remaining episodes in one go. I am.... I don't know. I hate and love Adam, I like Joan even more (surprisingly I wasn't huge on her before) I HATE Bonnie. So what the hell happened to her anyway. I actually needed more of that storyline. Kevin & Lily are adorable, very nice performance she did in the church. Nice to see her softer side. Ryan sucks (LOVE Wentworth Miller) but Ryan sucks. What an ending. And the fact that they cancelled this is an absolute sin. I am glad I watched all the episodes together or I think I would have spend the day crying after T&E. How could he do that. You know what pissed me off the most is that he did it more than once. That just makes it more discpicable (sp?).I actaully wanted to throw up. Amber did such a good job, it looked like she did too. And Chris, beautiful, sweet Chris. I wanted to knock his perfect teeth out. And then kiss and make him all better. What an awesome performance. How did they not get any kind of award for that. I mean really! I feel empty right now. I gotta log off in a minute but I needed to vent. I want to read everyone elses previous vents too, so somebody point me to the right thread. And when I come back I can really let loose. I am totally going tp have to read Butterflies again now. And Deb you may now (if it's ready) post the next chapter. I am totally holding you to it. Oh and the hubby is sooooo getting me this on DVD. Hopefully in about two months he will be finishing the basement and we'll be getting a 52" LCD HD Tv and I will be watching Adam in all his glory on a Big Screen!!!! I can wait. I better go make him get back to work hahaha. Totally not done venting but that's enough for now. :doh::rolleyes::angry::embarrassed::fedup::drool: that's how I feel.

TeeJay · 15 Mar 08 :: 21:20

Donna, I hope you don't mind that I moved this into the JoA section.

Good girl for finishing the season. Wow. And, yeah, it leaves you empty, doesn't it? I watched season 2 when it was still on US TV, so I had a week's gap between the episodes. It was torture. And the cancellation was too. We were sitting there with the uncertainty for weeks on end. And in the end none of our protesting helped. I wrote a few letters to CBS. And they cancelled it away.

-TeeJay

magicalturkey · 15 Mar 08 :: 21:26

I can totally relate to you about the wanting to throw up. I remember the first time I watched T&E, it was my mom's friend's birthday so him and his wife were here. I knew I couldn't miss the episode so I went up to watch it in my room... and I came back down an hour later physically ill. I worried one of my friends, because I was usually on the computer at least during commercials, she thought it sent me into shock. Which it did.

I still can't believe the way it ended. But it gives us writers plenty to play with.

justme · 15 Mar 08 :: 21:39

I know just how you feel. You could almost sympathize with the him at the end of "T&E", but the way he behaved in the early scenes of "Spring Cleaning" (and, to a lesser extent, "Common Thread") made me want to kill him! Seriously! That stuff at the lockers when she gave his stuff back? What a d*#k!!!! She was clearly in so much pain, and he doesn't even acknowledge that she was hurting, much less accept HIS responsibility for having caused it. If I'd been in the room with him and had had a hatchet in my hand (and if he weren't, you know, a fictional character ) I coulda hurt him. And in that same scene, she tries to spare his feelings? She could see that she'd hurt him when she said that she thought he might like to give the stuff to someone else, so she tried to temper the comment somewhat. It was so totally out of character that I'd give a whole lot to have seen how they got out of it if there had been a third season. Same with the Ryan Hunter stuff. :fedup:

But as far as hating Bonnie, I just can't. She was so clearly just a plot contrivance that I can't take anything about her seriously. It's unbelievable that Adam would do that AT ALL, much less for nothing. And Bonnie was nothing.

Susanna · 16 Mar 08 :: 01:16

I always felt sorry for Bonnie for a couple of reasons. a) like justme said in another thread, she didn't betray Joan, her crime was less than that of Adam's, but I guess its easier for people to take it out on her than a character we love, b) she's clearly got a lot of crap going on in her on life, she's just an unstable person, c) Adam treated her like shit, d) well, I'm sorry but it's Adam? I mean it's Adam we're talking about, I mean I can't judge her for jumping at the chance to have sex with him, he's Adam.

I found out about it through spoilers before I watched it, I went on the CBS Joan website looking to see how many seasons the show was at I think, and there was a poll like 'can joan forgive adam for her betrayal', so that was kinda like wtf, because at this point I'm watching season 1 and the concept of Adam betraying Joan is out there, so I'm thinking what kind of betrayal? So naturally I had to look it up and see what happened (actually I got my sister to look it up for me so I didn't spoil too much else) and was dumbfounded that he slept with someone else. I watched the select T&E clips from a Joan site soon thereafter. So it was a gradual thing with the episode, I never really got the full blown shock.

Donna · 16 Mar 08 :: 02:34

same with me Susanna. I watched the T&E clips here too. So it was full blown shock.I can just imagine how devastated you guys must have been watching it when it originally aired. It was hard enough watching it knowing exactly what was going to happen. I don't really feel bad for Bonnie. Adam did treat her like shit. But she just had this look in her eye that made me unable to really sympathize with her. Joan was decent to her and she went and f***ed her boyfriend anyway. I am just as pissed at Adam though. I really have a problem with the fact they slept together more than once. It makes it so much worse to me. Like it wasn't really something that "just happened" as Adam was so fond of saying. That makes it premeditated.

Susanna · 16 Mar 08 :: 03:27

yea, Adam's excuse "it just happened" is just pathetic, I always reminds me of a Boy Meets World episode where Cory kisses another girl and tells Topanga it was an accident, and Topanga says "so what, you fell and her lips broke your fall?" Except, y'know, slightly different body part...

It sucks though, because whenever I watch/think about this episode I can't help but lose faith in all mankind, like I mean, if Adam did that, then there's absolutely no hope for anyone else. Which kinda makes me think about the biblical nature of his name. His "sins" kinda screwed up the entire humankind. I don't know, I'm possibly reaching, I'm not exactly 100% knowledgeable in the creationist stuff.

TheCentralScrutinizer · 16 Mar 08 :: 03:44

Exactly Susanna, Biblical. Adam in the tree in Common Thread was no accident.

Donna, in The Haircut and an upcoming, already completed chapter of Butterflies, I try to explain what I think happened with Adam and Bonnie. I think they had two sexual encounters, yes. But he didn't sleep with her twice. He didn't "sleep" with her at all. My feeling is that first she kind of surprised him by going down on him. Then, she invited him to her apartment and he basically did a bump and run. There was no emotion in it except fear. Like that John Hiatt song Little Head says,

I'm loyal as a dog but I'm a hog for that sexual attraction
It starts up in my mind and makes a bee line below the belt
No consequences just satisfaction
Baby in my heart I'm faithful
This two headed monster is so distasteful
Forgive me when my instincts start stinkin'
I'm just so easily led when the little head does the thinkin'

I don't think Adam enjoyed the sex at all. I think he was just overwhelmed by the idea that he was actually getting some. Yes, he treated her like shit. She invited herself to be used and he used her.

He hurt everyone --- himself, her and especially Joan. I hated Bonnie so badly for so long. I especialy hated how people wrote her in the fics. Except for Tote. She kind of thought it happened the same way I did.

I think you guys are really gonna find the Butterflies chapter I'm talking about very interesting. It's a long way away but it's finished and it's pretty great, I think. Beginning with the next chapter, we finally address what happened with Bonnie in Butterflies. We never have up till this point. I'll talk to my co-writers and see if maybe we're ready to post this one by say, next weekend or so. We really all should give it one last read and make sure it's ready.

I'm glad you're all caught up Donna. Have you read the whole T&E thread?

magicalturkey · 16 Mar 08 :: 03:46

Wow, Susanna. Good idea comparing Adam Rove's "sins" to biblical Adam's "sins". Don't loose faith in guys. Remember, Adam's just a fictional teenage boy who's writers got lazy and all got together "Ok, he's a teenager with raging hormones, right? Joan won't sleep with him, right? So the only logical thing to happen is to bring in someone who will sleep with him... right?" While Moonves was sitting in his big leather chair "teenagers like angst and sex. The only way to get more teenage viewers is to have cheating angsty sex! The fact that almost no teenagers are home Friday night at 8 has nothing to do with the low teenage demographic! Oh, and they'll all stay home to see Hilary Duff and her sister... what's her name?"

... wow. That felt good.

TheCentralScrutinizer · 16 Mar 08 :: 03:47

LOL! That was GREAT, Laura!

Susanna · 16 Mar 08 :: 03:55

The only way to get more teenage viewers is to have cheating angsty sex!

Oh yeah, sure thing. That draws me in every time. Wtf, Moonves.:angry:

Don't loose faith in guys. Remember, Adam's just a fictional teenage boy who's writers got lazy

Haha. True. Will hold onto that.

ETA: And I never really thought too much about the Biblical connotations before, but I guess that's why Bonnie's artwork is so obsessed with hell kinda imagery.

Last edited by Susanna (16 Mar 08 :: 04:04)

Donna · 16 Mar 08 :: 04:03

Yeah Deb I just read the entire T&E thread now. It was really helpful and raised a lot of interesting points. I still can't help being mad at Adam. I really would have been able to be more forgiving if it was just the one time because really shit does just happen sometimes and you don't really know how you got in the middle of a situation until its too late ( I mean that's almost the point of Alpha Dog) but once he goes back to Bonnie again, it just changes everything. It's not just a mistake anymore, its a decision. I'm having a really hard time with that. It would have been interesting, but probably (torturous) for the writer to have explored this a bit more. I mean she just disappeared, like so many of the characters they brought in for an episode here and there. I often felt that they created all these different interesting storylines and just dropped them abruptly once the hour was up. Like what happened to the jump rope chick, or the duffs, or the little girls real murderer...really I could go on and on. Its like oh Joan learned her lesson for the week... now what new drama can we create. That really is one of my biggest complaints of the entire show, other than wrecking Adam obviously. I can't wait to get the dvds now so I can pay attention to which writers wrote what and if thats what made some of these episodes so disjointed (is that a word?) Anyways thanks for being here everyone. This place rocks.

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